keep the demo cc#58

there are only so many ways to deal with a problem. The CC and floorhug solution may seem frustrating, but it allows us to engage in close-range battles that feel more like DBZ. There’s really no reason to camp because I can hold down, and you can hold down, allowing us to counterhit each other.

The alternative is a game where percentages matter much more. My main strategy would be to get you to a percentage where one of my moves will always kill and then land a weak hit into my kill option. Why would I ever interact with you in any other way then shooting projectiles, if I risk losing valuable percentages that could lead to losing stocks?

It ultimately comes down to preference. I think most people prefer the latter because it’s what they know. ROA1 players enjoy it because the neutral is very intense—one small mistake, and you die. In high-octane situations, your adrenaline pumps, which can be fun but also very unforgiving. Ultimate players are used to thinking in terms of set frame data, specific spacings, and established neutral game plans. CC erases all of that comfort.

For the long-term balance of this game, especially in competitive settings, I believe CC is a necessary evil because it keeps the game feeling less solved at all times. Combos can change at any moment due to floor-hug DI or floor-hug SDI. Instead of relying on three or four DI patterns, to get combos.
I also think most of the playerbase really wouldnt hate cc if they knew that they are in frame advantage most of the time and if the opponent is camping cc below 30 they can just grab techchase. keep in mind once you get your opponent into the air cc no longer works. its really not that complicated. but if you dont know that your in frame advantage when you hit a ccing opponent or how to space around it it can feel very frustrating.

EDIT. i realized letting my tilt speak for me when i made this post didnt do this discussion any favours. it seems we have long gone past having a normal discussion about this and its turning more into politics then a healthy debate abouit whats best for our new favorite game.
Nevertheless i copied and pasted some of my thoughts on this problem from the nerf floorhugging thread in the interest of having a healthy discussion rather then one based on frustration and tilt at how this situation is being handled from both sides. i wanted to do this earlier but decided to keep the original post up for transparancy sake. now that it seems this has somehow gotten to the front page its probably better to rephrase the initial way i made this post.

it takes away from the natural fighter formula with something that logically makes zero sense in any other fighter. You shouldnt be able to retaliate after whiffing big moves just becuase of floor hug.

“Don’t let the scrubs win” is not a good look. Makes it clear you’re arguing in bad faith.

@it takes away from the natural fighter formula with something that logically makes zero sense in any other fighter. You shouldnt be able to retaliate after whiffing big moves just becuase of floor hug.
see you dont understand how the mechanic works at all do you.
this is just not what cc does at all if someone whiffs a big move and proceeds to hold down just do any option that punishes cc.
take claren dtilt for example or fleet backair or dair or zetterburns nair
all moves that give you a very lengthy combo string against people that hold down that you wouldnt get otherwise.

“Don’t let the scrubs win” is not a good look. Makes it clear you’re arguing in bad faith.
I strongly disagree, rivals long has been a competetive franchise that takes its balancing very seriously. this isnt smash ultimate thats made for casuals with 300 characters and unwinnable matchups. What dont let the scrubs win means is that we should educate people on mechanics they dont understand rather then just straight upr emoving them to please angry fighting game scrubs that lost a game becausae they got knowledge checked. this is how games have bad balance changes that end up ruining the experience for everyone at every level.
you are not game designers you are angry ebcause you lost to a mechanic you dont know how to beat.

@Anonymous A game being competitve is not an excuse to foster an environment of toxicity and antagonism.

What does it have to do with toxicity? Do you know the definition of a scrub? It is someone who refuses to learn and wants the world to bend to them rather than adapt to the environment From my point of view, forcing a developer to change something because you’re angry your skills didn’t transfer from other fighting games and you don’t understand how to deal with this mechanic is much more toxic than just calling a beginner a scrub. That’s what you are. It makes sense that if you don’t have thousands of hours in a genre/game, you would be considered a beginner.

I am always down to play infinitely long sessions with people much worse than me, and I have done free coaching in multiple games for years. From my point of view, the way the argument is being manipulated and twisted by people who don’t even understand what they are talking about creates a much more antagonistic and toxic environment.

a game where you can just run most people over by pressing jump and down faster then them
As opposed to… pressing just down faster than them?

That’s a disingenuous argument. If you’re better than me in a neutral game, then my ability to mash buttons three times faster than you shouldn’t make me better at the game. Holding down to punish me while I fast-fall aerials at you is nowhere near the same as me bullying you by being faster. the only valid counter argument to this is the game already has a parry and you would be correct. but that doesnt stop me from being able to set up into very easy gimp setups just like in rivals 1, which is arguably much more frustrating to learn to deal with. most of my friends refuse to play rivals 1 because every sweat in that game knows every di mixup and if you dont invest many hours practicing perfect counter sdi you just die at a stray hit at 15%

mighty+ why do you keep talking about CC when we are talking about floorhugging though? Also even though the mechanic is stronger in melee that doesnt mean it doesnt have the same problems in ROA2, your arguments fail to meet the point.

Also yes literally as mentioned before you need to use the mechanic to some extent to play the game at a good level what a surprise. its almost as if he would be disadvantaged if he didnt? just because he uses it doesnt mean the mechanic is fun to him???? thats literally the whole point. Also I used this video because its recent but theres whole more clips of top players bashing on CC/FH since like 2014 lmfao, ROA1 didnt have FH and still did fine??? Like im literally still gonna play this game even if FH doesnt get nerfed, its not make or break, But literally a bunch of players have commented about this mechanic saying its unfun, including at the top level, And you guys are still pretending its a ‘’skill issue’’even if that was the case literally if the mechanic is only fun for a subset of the top 5% of players its a bad mechanic IMO.

It’s pretty clear that they keep bringing up CC because unlike FH it’s a mechanic that most people actually like. Giving this post the title it has probably tricked a lot of people into voting for it thinking new players were trying to get CC removed. Makes it a lot easier to fearmonger on smash servers to farm votes that way.

OP really wrote a script to auto upvote this thread every few minutes, huh? Guess that’s why their account got deleted.

OP here, i deleted my account because i got sick of getting notifications on my phone for this thread and realized having to deal with people that dont listen to anything you say and repeat the same 5 questions made me deeply unhappy and i realized there is about a billion things id rather be doing then giving a shit about this.

As far as the post name, if i could have edited it to say floorhug i would have but you cant edit post titles. any mods can go ahead and do so if they feel like.

And yes you guys really are the arbiter of fun, how good have you been at any game. is anything that doesnt make you win unfun? because thats the mentality of 90% of ult players ive coached in the past. and guess what, almost all of them think floorhug is a great mechanic now that its not costing them games anymore because they are actually good at something.

Anything else that needed to be said has been said go back and read any of the threads and the discussions there you might learn something.
Including why i interchangeably refer to cc and floorhug as the same thng

@Anonymous, previously known by another name: For the future, you can hit the subscribed/unsubscribed button at the top of each thread to control notifications per thread

This worked for me, but it’s worth noting that in a previous feedback period, even if I unsubscribed from notifications, I was still getting emails when people responded, so I ultimately had to block the email address they were being sent from.

Isn’t this essentially a comeback mechanic, given that it’s more powerful after your damage gets reset from being KO’d? I thought competitive players hated those on principal, why does this one get a pass?

Why do you continue flooding this thread with hundreds of bot votes every night? Everyone can see the votes are falsified by now, why even bother anymore? Do you think the devs are that dumb?